Subs and Chill with Courtney Kocak

When you were first starting out, how did you take rejection? What did you learn from those first few rejections?

 

I was an actor first, so clearly, I’m a glutton for punishment. When I first started pursuing writing in my late 20s, I had some encouraging early wins. Of course, rejection caught up with me soon enough, but by that point, I was pretty comfortable with things not working out. I even made rejection my goal back in 2018 and wound up writing a popular essay about it called “Why 212 Rejections in a Year Was the Best Thing to Happen to Me.” That reinforced the numbers game aspect of this art stuff and really taught me how to pitch.

 

What was the first piece you got published? How did you celebrate? Also, what does your process look like for researching where to submit your work? (do you browse or just submit to anyone with subs open regardless?) 

 

There was a site back in the day called TheGloss, and they had an editorial week called “I Regret Everything,” as I was still struggling to get over a breakup. That period of time was a big transition for me in multiple ways — not only was I trying to get over my long-time live-in boyfriend, but I was also becoming disillusioned with the roles available for me as an actress, so I started writing content for myself to perform. When I saw TheGloss put a call out for submissions to close out their regret series, I frantically wrote an essay in one night. It was “I Regret Everything: Changing My Boyfriend.” It came out in one big flourish and even though I was groggy and worthless at work the next day (where my ex was still working because I got him a job there, fist palm), it was so cathartic. Of course, that essay is mortifying to me now — I’m glad the site is defunct — but it totally helped me process what I was going through. 

I quickly fell in love with essay writing, and six months later, I landed a 15-part series for xoJane during their heyday called “99 Days at the 99-Cent Store,” which felt huge to me. I didn’t get paid for that first essay and xoJane was paying me $50 a pop, so I couldn’t really celebrate by spending money. I was super broke at the time (and still am!), but getting a yes is its own form of reward, perhaps the best kind, so I celebrate by letting the momentary gratification wash over me and then try to get back to work. 

These days, I’ve developed relationships with editors at a few publications like InsideHook, Cosmopolitan, and KCRW, so I always try to take them something first if it’s a good fit. Otherwise, I have to do some research to find the right publication or ask writer pals for ideas, especially when we’re taking a class or workshop together and a piece is starting to feel done. I have a solid resume of bylines, so my short-term goals are:

a) Trying to nab a few more top-tier publications. I would love to have a New Yorker and/or New York Times byline — that’s probably going to require some Googling and Twitter stalking to find the right email.

b) My other big near-future goal is to place a few of my essays in lit journals, which I haven’t done much of yet. For that, I plan to use Chill Subs, obvs.

 

For a short piece like a story or a poem, how many places do you submit it to at a time? Do you keep track of your submissions? What does your editorial process look like before you hit submit? 

 

I’m a shameless simultaneous submitter, especially if there’s a timely hook. You sort of have to get it out there to wherever you think it could land. There’s rarely an occasion to submit to one publication at a time, in my experience. I’ve never had two interested parties fighting over an essay — what a dream that would be! I used to maintain a pitch log spreadsheet to track all this chaos, but I abandoned that a couple of years ago because my pitches have become mostly to editors I already know. 

As far as the editorial process, by the time I have a completed draft, it’s usually pretty solid, but still try to do at least one to two more editing passes to work out all the kinks before hitting submit.

 

What type of writer are you when it comes to submitting your work: Do you hold on to a piece for a long time and then have to give yourself a pep talk (if yes, please share) or do you subscribe to a more fuck it hit submit right away approach? If your piece gets rejected, are you one to power through and move on to the next publication or do you sit with it a little longer and try to figure out where you might’ve gone wrong? 

 

I’m a perfectionist, so unless there’s an urgent deadline, I’ll labor over a document way longer than necessary, trying to catch every error and gut-check every sentence before handing it over to an editor. But if I get rejected, I usually blow it off pretty quickly. No biggie, keep it pushing is my general rejection mindset. I have no limit to the number of places I’ll submit before giving up. If I believe in a story or piece of writing, I’ll keep going until it finds a home — or at least as long as I still have excitement for that particular piece. I think having that excitement and energy for your writing is a key element. It’s hard to get anyone else on board with your writing if you’re not personally stoked about it.

 

Is there a rejection letter that stands out in your mind? Something particularly harsh or intense? Or maybe even comical?

 

I got a hilarious rejection from The Belladonna Comedy site in 2020. I wrote a piece called “50 Shades of Cuomo,” which was a satirical take on how thirsty people were for Andrew Cuomo during peak COVID (and he was thirsty right back at them) and how he was the daddy-dom of New York during the crisis. But apparently, it didn’t quite land because that one never found a home during its relevance. I still think it’s a funny and accurate premise — maybe even more so in retrospect — but anyway, they said:

While we always enjoy your writing, we couldn’t get behind the idea of the virus standing in for a human BDSM submissive. 

LOLLLLLLLL.

 

What publication or magazine would you love to see yourself in someday? Or, if you have already been published in your dream pub, tell us about the experience.

 

I would love to see my writing in The New Yorker and The New York Times! Call me, both of you!!

Cosmopolitan was on my dream pub list for a long time and then I had a dreamy experience of landing my first byline there for their “Cosmo Confessay” series. I’d worked with editor Kayla Kibbe prior to this during her days at InsideHook, so I already knew she was fabulous to work with and a skilled editor. After she switched jobs, she reached out to me to see if I had anything for this series. I actually did have something perfect — My Tokyo Happy Ending Massage Changed Everything I Thought I Knew About Sex and Pleasure — and it wound up being a hugely popular viral essay. Now I’m working on a related book proposal. That was last summer, and I’m still on cloud nine. An experience like that gives you faith in manifestation. 😉

 

Is being published all it’s cracked up to be? What is your advice for writers who are working on getting published? 

 

Publishing can be awesome, but I think it’s better when you don’t need it. That takes the pressure off and allows the correct alignments to happen. I was so hungry to publish earlier in my career, and I have no regrets about how hard I pursued it because it gave me a lot of formative experiences that have shaped me as a writer. However, I’m currently in a very selective season of publishing because the pitching process can be distracting from writing itself. I’m working on a couple of book-length projects, and I’m also trying to keep much of those projects unpublished and pure as possible. On my podcast, The Bleeders, about book writing and publishing, Samantha Allen said that she likes publishing her most personal stuff in books versus online because it takes more effort to engage with a book, so it’s a sort of paywall that weeds out a lot of the bad faith readers. I love that publishing philosophy. My other piece of advice for writers is to build relationships with editors they like. That’s a lot more efficient than the spray-and-pray approach in the long run.

 

What is your all-time favorite sandwich order?

 

Jimmy John’s #6, The Veggie, is the perfect sub. Here’s the description:

A yummy Veggie sandwich, made with hand-sliced provolone cheese & tasty avocado spread, topped with mayo, fresh-sliced lettuce, tomato and cucumber.

Okay, now I’m drooling. Gotta go!

 

 

 

Courtney Kocak is a writer, podcaster, and comedian based in Los Angeles. She wrote for Amazon’s Emmy-winning animated series Danger & Eggs and Netflix’s Know It All podcast. She’s produced a slew of highly-ranked podcasts—including The Bellas Podcast, which debuted at #1 on Apple Podcasts, PayPal’s Never Stand Still, and Girlboss Radio—and currently hosts two of her own: Private Parts Unknown, about love and sexuality around the world, with over 1.5 million downloads to date, and The Bleeders, about book writing and publishing. As a writer, her bylines include The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, Cosmopolitan, BUST, Bustle, InsideHook, and more. You can find her on Instagram and Twitter at @courtneykocak.

 

Join Courtney’s upcoming How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought workshop with Write or Die on July 22nd! Sign up here